tv Economics of Immigration Reform CSPAN April 30, 2016 3:14am-4:43am EDT
reform. the american jewish committee if used in houston this event, one hour 20 minutes. [inaudible conversations] >> good evening. i am very pleased to welcome you to this evening's program organized by the ajc belford institute for latino and latina american affairs on the economics of immigration reform #reform now. and this could not be a more timely coming together and discussion. i cannot say whether it was on the front page or not,
but the "wall street journal" ran aa major story on the thorny economics of illegal immigration. that story says, few issues in the presidential campaign are more explosive than whether and how much to crackdown on illegal immigration, which some in particular blame for america's economic woes. and so this is a timely issue not only because of the campaigns but because it has been a timely issue for too many years. as many of us struggle to bring about reform of our very broken immigration system, and we will hear about the economics of immigration reform. it is a timeless story. as bruce springsteen writes about the marriott throngs who have sought to make their home in this american
land, he writes, the nichols, the southeast, the blacks, argentines, germans and jews came across the water thousand miles home with nothing in their bellies but the fires down below. they died building the railroads. they died in the field and factories being scattered in the wind. they died to get your hundred years ago and are still dying now, the hands of both the country were always trying to keep out. now, as randy noted in his introductory remarks earlier , director of ajc houston, committed to fair and generous treatment of immigrants as a jewish value. as the lyrics of the song note, this is not only about humane treatment that is the case immigrants 100 years ago and today of the hands that fill this country.
todaycountry. today we will talk about how important it is for the well-being of this country from our economy, how important immigrants have been. so i will invite in a moment up to join us the president of the perryman group to deliver a keynote address on this issue. the gentleman to people down for me to my right. and the mere going to have some brief remarks by our respondents beginning of my far right with jesus romero, director of immigration service for the christian life commission of the baptist general convention of texas. that is a mouthful. but we will then here from the president of four us command finally, to my immediate right here from steve murdock, director of the hobby center for the
study of texas and rice university. let's begin. >> thank you. try to waive my way to the podium. in fact, i was talking to her house legislative caucus and found out they had a 28-inch podium. i was away from the steps. i decided i would jump up there and discovered i had a 26-inch vertical leap. and i was already back. i have to be honest with you. it is great to be here with you. i appreciate you being here. i will not say how long. steve murdock and taught and jesus. i appreciate everyone who put this together. it is a very important issue
before i do talk about it, one more littlelittle thing about myself because you did not say enough about me. i just recently got a little award i am proud of. a thousand people, and a distinguished alumni award. love that. it is all right. i had not been there a while my wife asked me what it was like. i told her the wonderful things about it. over the challenges? it was a small town. it is a drivers education and sex education in the same car. and then she said, she thought about that a minute. you don't drive very well either. just to give you an idea of how much respect i get home. you are going to hear and have been hearing a lot about this issue in the
coming months. we are in an election cycle. we cannot avoid it. it will be with us for months, and you are hearing a lot of things said, some very compassionate, some very cool, some in between, but it will be talked about a lot, unafraid much of it will shed more heat than light on the issue. and so what i'm trying to do and have done throughout our entire careers is called unlikely see them. the numbers are what they are, and that is the bottom line. i'm going to start with one very simple number. a few years ago we did a 50 state study. every state had the same general direction of impact, but this is a startling number. all we hear all the time, these folks are taking jobs away from americans. let me give you a simple statistic.
there are twice as many undocumented workers in the state of texas today as there are employed people in the state of texas today. let that sink in for a 2nd twice as many people want to work today on documented in the state of texas asis people who are on the unemployment rolls in the state of texas. now, never mind a lot of those folks are employed for all kinds of reasons, don't have the physical skills to do jobs, don't have the training, construction trades, let's put that aside. let's pretend for the moment you could swap them out one for one. let's say that she could. you would suddenly have a gap ofa gap of about 600,000 workers in the state of texas in one day. how would you go about filling that gap? and the answer is you would not. and it would create a difficult and disruptive situation, and that is the basic economics of the situation.
markets have always had remarkable ability to find ways to get things done. and the reason we have a lot more undocumented workers today than 30 years ago is simple. the baby boomers got old. so we had shortages of workers, and we did all kinds of things to fill the shortage, encourage more folks, more immigrants to come in conflict daycare and childcare and parent care in the workplace to keep people working. we started job sharing, letting people work from home, started using more and more technology to take the place of workers are start encouraging retired people to come back to the workforce. we did all of those things because the market so we have to find more folks to work. and we started having more undocumented workers, and
you can track the numbers. you canthe contract numbers, and it fluctuates with the economy. during good times you have more and during other times you have less because it is a labor force, and that is the response you get. answer given that we ask these questions, what is the economic impact? we did numbers on that contract numbers of the folks working and then the multiplier effects, and they are both very big numbers. if you don't like multipliers we are looking at about 10 percent of the texas economy. if you like multipliers, we are looking at about 20 percent. they are looking at somewhere between 1.2 and 3 million jobs, looking at somewhere between almost 150,000,000,300,000,000,000 and gross state product in a state that generates 1.4 or 1.5 trillion.
and those are very, very big numbers, very significant, and it, and it indicates how important it is. the other thing you hear,, and i call these things like the numbers come out. the other thing that youhere is, these folks are such a drain on the public service system, such a drain. here is the reality. the people measure that and come up with those numbers command you see it all the time, we forget is when a person works, the tax revenue they generate is not just the tax revenue that they pay. when a person works by definition they are working for somebody else and producing something. and the fact that they produce that generates additional tax dollars, and i'm not talking about multipliers but the mere fact that that work was done that comes directly as a result of those votes being
here. you recognize taxes are paid for which no benefits are drawn command we tried to measure this and measure it every way to be as conservative as we could. and we included because i know it is a controversial issue, if you have undocumented parents and they have an american citizen child comeau we included a child. they are all in on the impacts here trying to measure this. the federal government makes about 20 billion a year off of these folks all considered. the state of texas government makes about 11 billion a year. and even local government make almost a billion, about 800 million. that would surprise me a little bit. that one surprised me a little bit. high value-added industries were folks are working command it made the difference.
that is not mean every government is a winner. there are some sectors right now that come up behind in the system. and that is because if you look at local government, most of the revenue they generate is sales tax. most sales tax goes to cities. the services that they consume are typically healthcare services and education services provided by school districts and counties that rely on property taxes, and so consequently the carve up of the local money does not always match the need. there are local governments going through strains and difficulties in the system. when you have a surplus there is a simple way to fix that. it is not hard at all. if it was not for that pesky thing called politics. they would not be hard at all to solve the problem, but the bottom line is, this is a vital part of our
economy. and i am leaving politics out of it, the human issues. this is a vital part of our economy. we do not have a way to replace this workforce. whether you're a conservative, liberal, compassionate, and a pure dollars and since numbers way we need to have policies that make sense in this regard. and when you look at it that way, it becomes simple. if you create policies that make it harder the economic cost of the higher. if you create policies that make it more efficient where these workers can be here in a way that is not the cruel when they sometimes have to get here now, if you make it a more rational process to get here and work and to be contributors to the economy, you make the system more efficient. and economists often look at things whether it is
efficiency reducing or efficiency enhancing. a lot of what we do today is efficiency reducing. a lot of what is being proposed right now is really efficiency reducing. because it could literally,, and a big report through the numbers, there are so many different scenarios, we did one scenario, and it was not shut everything down immediately. we did one where we made it a lot more difficult and took amalgamations and reports. as you can imagine, the cost of the state becomes hundreds of thousands of jobs for me to when you give time for the market to adjust. on the other hand, if you make the process more efficient where people can come and go as they wish and as is needed because what you find is it is not that they just like to be away for their families and be here.
they are here with their jobs. it is very much a case of economic opportunity and economic need that drives them, and it is a very, very important contribution. the worker span different industries. we had aa number of them in the oil and gas tank industry. but a large percentage of them are agricultural workers, workers in the hospitality industry and workers in construction. think if you had an economy where you could not grow, build or go anywhere. think about that for a minute. he could not grow anything, build anything camargo anywhere because that is what we are looking at. it is a vital cog in the economy that we need to preserve and protect. protect.protect. and put need to make the system work more efficiently. if we can do that we achieve wonderful goals. we achieve a lot of goals foreign equity and
compassion perspective, a lot of important goals, but i was not asked to talk about those. i was asked to talk about what happens in the economy. we allow this great economic engine commanded is a great economic engine : the fact that we can go through aa major oil bust and continue to grow is adequate testimony. a great economic engine driven by technology, minerals, healthcare, many, many things, wonderfully diverse economic engine. there are some things that we must do. we must invest in education, invest in the safety net, invest in infrastructure, and have a workforce that can meet our needs. if you look at the landscape right now, this is a vital, absolutely critical piece of it. if we do not preserve and help to improve that are
going to pay economic consequences in texas. thank you very much. [applause] >> first of all, as was noted, all of our speakers have very distinguished resumes and bios. you will find that in the packet in front of you. second, at the end of the remarks, they're may be a couple of questions to ask, but then we will turn to all of you. it should be cards on the table. then we will read some questions out. finally, in a literal change
of direction, we will start with doctor murdock and ask you to proceed with your remarks and then go down the line. >> thank you. >> thank you. this gives me more protection. [laughter] >> am glad to be here. very nice things are being said about me here. i am reminded of the talk i was giving a small town in texas. the gentleman who have been giving the job of introducing me got ill at the last moment. you know, done a lot of things. i don't think he had seen the word demographer before. the finally he said, well, i guess it is best just to think of him as a rural demagoguery. [laughter] i will try not to be today.
i do want to start off with some basic facts. i think it is important about immigration. and undocumented immigration. forty-seven immigrants of all forms, illegal, documented, undocumented in the united states. we know from estimates done by the best work in this area. 1.61.9. and when i heard these figures i often get people a rush of saying those are wrong. there 30 or 40 million in
the united states. 3 million if there is a single person in texas. he is a demographer trained at the university of texas, the key person for the pew hispanic center he does the estimates on undocumented immigration. and i said to him, you know, how do you know that there are 30 or 40 million of these people? and he said, well, there is one thing you cannot hide. and that is dying. and if there are literally 30 or 40 million of these people, they are the healthiest of the people who have ever walked the face of the earth because they died at a level of 11 to 13 million as you look across the country. i think one of the things that is important to understand are graphically is the fact, and we talked
about this with labor force. when you start looking at populations, one of the things you see is that those in here that look like me that are not hispanic are disappearing. we are literally dying out. now, let me tell you why i say that. if you look at the national figures, for example, and you look at the last census decade, for example, from 2000 to 2010 and you look at the children so that you see what is coming will you find is that the number of non-hispanic white children declined by about 4 million. the number of hispanic children increased more than
that. so if you just concentrate and hispanics are simply one of the immigrant groups, you can see how important these populations are to us simply maintaining a population. that is not to talk at all, pointing out something, not only are we dying out because we are not having enough kids, long-term, but we that look like we're getting older and older so that if we look at immigration we need to see in that not only something that is impacting is now, but will impact us in the long-term and is something that if it does not occur america will demographically not be better. the other thing i think we need to look at we look at immigration and particularly as we look at the economic aspects, not only of their impact on our economy, but
increasingly what happens to that proportion of the economy that they represent if they don't change the socioeconomics they go with the demographics. the reality of it is, and we have looked at this in a great deal of detail, the future of the united states, the future of texas is tied to its minority populations. and because minority populations are more likely to be every populations also to our immigrant populations, and the reality of it is thought i would like a texas the reality of it is, the future of both is tied to our minority and immigrant populations and how well they do is really how americans can do.
[applause] >> you have given whole new meaning. todd, please. >> i feel like -- i will go over here. >> okay. here me okay? my name is todd, president of an organization, and advocacy organization, about two and a half years old, and we were started by a bunch of leaders in the business and tech community who wanted to finish -- fix the broken immigration system. comprehensive for commonsense immigration on foreign framework, fixed illegal immigration system so it makes sense from this family and economy, sure the
border, but with that we need a pathway to citizenship for the 11 and a half million and will be very differential. and these are all principles. i'm going to talk a little bit about the high skilled space, because that is a space that we concentrate on. before i do that, i think we are not going to talk about the politics, but i want to echo what has been said comeau one of the things we think is so important to get the truth out there and more on the issues that we wanted to is there are people who just have the feeling that they should have their own plaques. we run into questions about why don't we just secure the border 1st and get to this issue later. what of these people go to the back of the line, why don't they just illegal, fix the situation? and so as someone who spends the majority of his waking
hours trying to get members of congress to be supportive on this issue, it is great to get to talk to people who are interested in passionate about this issue and you are working on this issue and who have been working on this issue longer than we have. so a high skilled immigration system, i'm going to do a fun experiment here. i left my phone over there. reach in your pocket and put your phone up just for a 2nd. you should all take a picture of me. i look great. now. [laughter] so everybody, okay. now, if you are holding a phone that is not either running on a programming or designed by an immigrant or a child of an immigrant, immigrant, if you think you have that phone, keep it up. otherwise put your phone down. anybody? okay.
i feel pretty good that no one has like an old nokia from 2005. that is basically always figured out here. you are the exception as opposed to the rule. this is great. it has been 25 years since we had. [inaudible] cutting-edge technology at that time, a big transition where we went from atari to nintendo. the soviet union was a major superpower that matched up as a country. the internet did not exist. before the innovation sector, before the tech sector, for what we have seen boom here in austin, immigration is actually critical. we no longer have illegal immigration system that works for today's economy. 40 percent of fortune 500 companies, 50 percent of
silicon valley startups and 50 to 65 percent of startups and tech are started with at least one immigrant founder. immigrants are twice as likely to be entrepreneurs. if you look at our immigration system, though, we are being held back. let me tell you about our high skilled immigration system. we have an incredible problem. so we have an incredible problem with h 1 b, foreign-born students,b, foreign-born students, and i will start with those in go through the process of what we think our immigration system should look like. you want to come to this country, studied in the philippines poland or wherever. the big place that you get into this country is go to an american university in the graduate and you have one year. so you get what is called the optional practical training program and have
the ability to work anyplace , if you have an employer, okay, great. he graduated from college. we had to subsidize your education, by the way. and the question is, whatis, what happens then? you have this one year temporary pass. unfortunately, then we throw these people out. a lot of people try to get what is called an h 1 b visa, but to give you a sense of how limiting these are, there are 65,000 spots available, another 20,000 if you have a masters, but in the last decade every single h 1 b visa has been taken out other between the 1st day they are available annually or the 1st week. we don't have illegal immigration system that is letting in enough high skilled immigrants. okay. you get the h 1 b and stay for a while and decide you
want to apply for a green card.a green card. anyone here from the philippines, china, india, anyone in the room? so you are from, let's pick india today. you applied for a green card. you get sponsored, have a sponsored, have a great employer. anyone want to guess how long on average it would take you to get your green card today? five years? higher or lower? ten? ten is a pretty long time. twenty-seven probably right now. just hold for a 2nd and let that sink in. these are people who are high skilled immigrants, we put a and say there are only a certain number of immigrants who come from a certain country. china, philippines,china, philippines, india, we have a lot of immigrants coming in. people are stuck in this incredible backlog. it is 2016, talking about
2043 before you could get a green card which is well past flying cars. i say that. it is important to put these things in perspective. it has been 25 years since the soviet union, another 25 years before people can get that piece of paper that says they have general work authorization and are permanent resident. you know, we have a high skilled immigration system that no longer reflects the values of our country. if you look historically, the united states is not built by immigrants. our latest competitive advantage in the world historically has been we are a nationa nation of immigrants the people at risk so much to come here and so what we are fighting for is to have a system that embraces that and heading into a more globalized economy and illegal immigration system. thank you. [applause]
>> you're going to go next? [inaudible conversations] >> we had a great initially to stay at our seats. not everyone is is coming up here, so i will as well. my name is jesus romero. i am born and raised in mexico, first-generation immigrant, came to the united states in 1987 for graduate school, and never left. on my dad's side, his whole family is from texas. they have been living here since these lines were part of mexico. and so one day in 1848 they woke up and found out that they belonged to a different country. they stayed put.
it did not break the family who were able to come back in force, and ever since, grateful for the opportunity to share my thoughts here. i am actually a spanish professor. that is what i do for a living. and i teach hispanic american culture of and literature. i am not an economist. i am ai am a little bit intimidated by this group of wonderful folks over here. that's true, but still, you have an imposing presence. [laughter] but i can share a little bit i was asked to come and share a little bit about the impact that immigration reform has on texas baptists because that is my other job , i began really sensing in my life that i wanted to serve immigrants, just people like myself, being very grateful for this
adoptive country of mine that has been so gracious to me. and so i became the director of the immigration service, which is a ministry that is under the umbrella of the christian led commission which is an agency that deals with the relationship between faith and ethics and justice and public policy. that umbrella is part of the baptist general convention of texas. around 2006 we get sick and tired of seeing immigrants being taken advantage of. immigration consultants here in texas. we call them barrios. i don't know if anyone is familiar with the term. they are like a plate here in the state of texas. these people are people who are really practicing law without a license. they are not immigration attorneys.
they are also not recognized are accredited by the board of immigration appeals. they charge hefty fees to do immigration paperwork when they have people claiming to be helping them and they are really being scammed out of thousands and thousands of dollars, but they do nothing. or worse yet they file people and get them in trouble. deportation proceedings. there was one case here in austin just three or four years ago where one single entity was able to get $50,000 out of a single-family of immigrants, $50,000. in exchange for nothing. and according to numbers from the state of texas, there is one opening up shop in the state of texas every day.
and there is not enough money, manpower for law enforcement to go after these people, and the penalties are still not festive. so people will be more protected. we get sick and tired of seeing the abuse and found out about the border immigration appeals recognition and accreditation process, which hardly anybody knows anything about, but it turns out nonprofits, religions, nonprofits, religions, social nonprofits can apply for this, for recognition and accreditation and if they go through proper training and immigration law they get the blessing of the department of justice and they can offer legal services. the trick is, you have you have to offer them at a low cost. they have to make a living. you're doing it to help people, but you get to practice law without having a lot agree. and so we decided that we would encourage baptist churches belonging to texas baptists to be part of that. go for bia recognition and accreditation, open up the
legal service centers as ministers so that you can reach out to immigrant communities and bless them and protect him and teach them, and if you can, then offer legal services and given the green card, given their citizenship. we have been doing that since 2006. i can give you a few numbers about the impact of immigration reform, the budget is close to half a million command we estimate that with immigration reform anywhere from 20 to 30 percent of that amount could easily be redistributed to meet other needs among the texas population. one big area is lots of hispanic churches, baptists are becoming more and more brown, more and more hispanic, and we are in need of leadership and don't have
enough pastors. live -- you have no idea how many calls i get, at least one or two a week from somebody from some church asking me, can we petition for this gentleman? he is aa leader, man of god. we want him as a pastor. you can't because he is not documented. it is heartbreaking. that is one number for you there. the project was created to offer legal services of san antonio the work out of the campus of baptist university of the americas which is the college where i serve, and we are spending close to hundred thousand a year just on serving immigrants in taxes, documented and undocumented. end the funny thing is, a little bit of a paradox because we talk about immigration reform and the
need for something to happen so that these people come out of the shadows and we can get the full economic benefit, but given the problem that i alluded to before with these scammers and immigration consultants, unless the law changes to do something about that, my guess is that we are going to have to continue spend money to protect people because they will be in the hands of scammers. so that is one thing, we advocate for immigrants, documented and undocumented. very strong about making everybody aware that there is this problem with immigration consultants. so those are the numbers that i have for you, and i am just very grateful that
we texas baptists get to do this kind of ministry because, you know, it puts us in contact with people, not dealing with distractions, real people, the strangers among us, and they have worked and they have dignity and we have to do as an organization of texas baptists, everything we can to care for them and protect them. thank you very much. [applause] >> before i turn to the 1st question, i am looking forward to receiving questions from you on the floor. the importance of her religious voice in this effort. immigration coalition with the jewish faith, we often bring to the fore this notion of remembering that
you are strangers in the land of egypt evoked the concept. we speak about that. mindful of the stranger and to see that he or she is well treated, it is a concept that we share, of course. baptists, catholics, miles -- muslims, many phase working together to try to bring about response. thank you for that testimony. i want to turn to the issue of the notion that somehow immigrants are taking away jobs from americans and perhaps play a little bit of devils advocate since you are all so much in unison here.
the commentator is so they are taking jobs americans can do because of minimum-wage laws, the safety of the workplace, and employers are in affecting the benefit of hiring people who are not -- in a way that is not conformity. and that the way we are seeing the benefit in some places the company it is an inherently equitable thing to do. itit is one of the reason why the jobs are not being taken by americans. >> now famous wall street article, we are told that
good economy at the time. they then began to feel worker shortage as the economy began to improve. and what they found, with this article reports happened is that there was a worker shortage and wages rose by 15 percent for arizona farmworkers and 10 percent for construction workers, legal residence between 2010 and 2014 according to the bureau of labor statistics. the need for workers has increased leaving them to boost wages more rapidly and crimping our ability to expand. i guess the question is, what's wrong with that? >> that's the question i put to you and anyone else. >> i will start, since you directed at me. obviously, there are people abusing the system, no question. it happens, and it is
unfortunate. that is not your typical situation. if you look at these situations some of these folks work lower wage industries, some work in high wage industries, and it is not always a case if you get up, and a lot of situations they simply are not there. that is the situation we find ourselves in. a lot of numbers are squishy, our friends at pew center, best we know 75% plus of these folks are paying withholding tax, income tax, social security. it is not a case of what a lot of people perceive it to be. the other thing i will point out on that subject, and i think it is important we recognize it. in taxes right now we have roughly 12 million folks working. our population is roughly 27 million give or take. so somewhere around 25 for
every25 for every worker there are about to have people. thereabouts. seeds of the population is between 1.6 and 1.8 million. the workforce is 1.2. if you take 1.6, that is one of the 3rd. 1.8 is one of the half, and those and those folks are counted in our state population. they actually bring an average down already. it will be about two and a half if you take them out. two and a half versus one of the 3rd versus one a half. these folks are coming here to work, coming here when jobs are available and in demand. oneone of the 3rd people means every worker, there is only one that comes in for every three workers. you workers. you start talking about children, it is a lower number. it is not a case of one of the myths that you here, person comes in, spouse, seven or eight kids.
those numbers don't hold up. up. you don't get 1.6 million population 1.2 billion people working that is the case. these are people who are responding to a labor market and responding to the labor market shortage and the situation did occur in arizona, but there is a situation that occurred in arizona and that a pure worker shortage and could not get people to build the things that needed to be built. it is a balance. it is a balancing thing. what a raise wages? probably so. is there anything wrong with that? probably not. you have to keep in mind, is very much a function of supply and demand, not so much that i construction guy minds another 5% and wages but that they cannot get people to do the jobs. it is very much meeting an essential need in the workforce right now. >> i will jump in here on that. and my own? great. i will hold it up. i think it is a great 1st
question. i'm going to start with our immigration system. they are bad actors in our immigration system, whether they are people who are taking advantage of people with immigration fraud, forcing people to work for $5 an hour, i get up every single day, and what we hear from our opponent is, they find a problem with immigration system and say, you guys just one more immigrants. hold on a 2nd. we are trying to fix it. let me explain what, i mean. there are people in the construction industry and people $4 an hour with no benefits. the people their paying $4 an hour to often put in the position of, do i call the police work for $4 an hour. i work in the space, somebody, i'm a jew who grew up in st. louis, missouri. the idea that if something happened wrong i could not
pick up the phone, the idea that if i saw a woman being, just to be really clear, sexually assaulted, i'm not trying to pick up the phone because i don't want someone to get deported was never part of my experience growing up. but by denying people legal status people outside the law and don't have the protections of these things comeau whether that is not being paid a minimum wage, whether it is so many things in life. so i think the important thing to keep in mind here is what i am advocating for, what we are advocating for, to put everyone on a level playing field so you don't see that. if you look at the study, what you see is when you remove huge numbers of people from economic disaster. look at mass economic deportations.
one says is 892 million. you hear a lot. we can do x, y, z. it would cost us six to nine times that to remove this population and have a $2 trillion economic impact. there are bad actors in the immigration system. if we fix the legal immigration system people can come here legally which is what is so important. the last thing command this is what is so hard, two groups are cited. and if you -- they like to say they are pro- immigrant,
full removal, they like to call it a ten year pause. that's all. frankly, go back and see who they were started by, funded by groups in the 1970s, the eugenics movement, but they get printed in the "wall street journal" has groups who care about border control. to give you an idea, these are the people we fight with every single day. >> just one thing. part of what we need to recognize is that as we treat undocumented immigrants or others in ways that diminish incomes, the levels of education, etc., but we are doing is really diminishing our own resources. human resources as a competitive nation. and so you see, for example,
if you look at poverty rates or just taking hispanics because we don't have as good of data, but just hispanics because they have a larger portion of the people who are on documents, what you find is the incomes are 20 to 30 to 40 percent less on average depending on the area we look at. policy rates that are two to three times sign off on the high school graduation rates are high school levels of education or 20, 30, or more , and so as we, as they get into jobs and sometimes as we put them in jobs of the nature, we actually create a situation that has the potential to make our society on an ongoing basis less competitive.
we are really not only doing a terrible thing to them but in fact doing terrible things to ourselves and our society and economy. >> i have one more question to ask. it really has to do with the white paper which paints the picture of not only absolute numbers of immigrants but the percentage increasing over time. and so one issue, how do we treat the undocumented to show that they are treated humanely and fairly and then there is the future oriented question of having done that , what should the policy be for the future. what is the limiting principle. 41.3 million immigrants is good, maybe three times that amount would be great.
is there limiting principle in terms of what we should be advocating for in terms of numbers of immigrants should be coming in this country? >> i don't think i have a good answer for that. i don't know what that number would be. certainly has our population ages and our workforce is aging, we're going to have increased demand, and it is most likely that that certainly cannot come from people like me because we're just not going to be here. i am sorry to say, but we are literally dying out. it seems to me that what we have a stake in our populations is really at the expense of nature, and greg can talk about this better than i can, but we really have at stake with them our own future, our future economically and otherwise
telling people that i tell these questions. what about the policy proposals? assemble a list any names but the bottom-line net of these proposals make sense. without that none of them will have been. [laughter] i promise. >> and it has tapped into the in your whenever their life in they think it should be. >> i think there is a lot of haggling non the do think
is designed to prevent this from happening. and with that deportation and then if you are the parents in the u.s. citizen so with that astronomical human cost to put in different countries stibnite to give you some perspective based of those numbers as far as the children who are citizens we estimate taxes are 400,000?
there are 26,000 kids in foster care. >> see you compare what this would actually need. and there is no benefits otherwise revoking their citizenship to the u.s. board bed even without that. >> and also the internment camps of world war ii. we'll receive net population in wintertimes. rate used the term awful fate you have complete the pressure kelly a net eight you can not happen.
the three countries one of the northern triangle. end of the treats have descended into chaos from more and using that for the refugee crisis, but whatever term you want to use. but why people caving in the ladies with the first decade of this century as well. it is important to keep those things in mind. >> that date period steen each and then i've started in driving.
fix the immigration system do i moved back from a certain company nor do i hope i will do that? in it works together with the democrats said republicans can come together. this is one of the few big issues from washington d.c.. it really does i cannot stress enough what we see now is the al side of voices
but i state that there has been tons. >> but one thing and i don't believe whatever comes out of these immigration programs it cannot be like canada with complete the year rational economic policy. these are the professions that we need so it is completely irrational i don't think we can never do it that way because the a